Author Topic: Lenders - beware the coming storm  (Read 4173 times)

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Flyingifr

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Lenders - beware the coming storm
« on: November 03, 2009 07:03:37 AM »
With the current recession and credit crisis, the news media is beginning to note a cosmic shift in people's attitudes towards credit. No longer are credit cards being looked at as a universal necessity - they are once again being looked at as a luxury.

I am also seeing a shift in attitudes on both sides of the equasion. Loyalty is history. Lenders, who used to value long term relationships with their customers are now looking at their customers as cash cows and when the cow doesn't give enough milk it is sent to the slaughterhouse to be turned into hamburger through rate jacking, credit line decreases or simple unannounced account closures.

I remember the days when bankers encouraged you to have a long term relationship with them. My Debit Card attached to my bank account still reads "customer since 1996", but my credit cards no longer do. American Express still does that, but after a rate jacking and 4 credit line decreases in six months on an account that was never delinquent by one dollar or one day that account was closed within 14 months of its opening. Amex made no attempt to keep me as a customer and actually paid thousands of their customers to go away. The other credit card companies are in the same boat. Citibank made no attempt to salvage our relationship, neither did GEMB.

It is easy to ascribe this to the current credit crisis, and that is probably a correct assumption, but what is happening to the concept of "loyalty"? Loyalty is a component of trust, and the credit industry is built on trust. Lenders trust borrowers to repay and borrowers trust lenders to be honest with them and to honor their commitment to lend. Stories are legion of people at checkout counters across the land attempting to use a credit card that they thought had plenty of available credit only to find there is none after a quick and unannounced decrease in credit line. I am not talking about accounts that are delinquent in payment - I am talking about accounts that are current, have always been current and in many cases actually have no balance owed at all.

Lenders say "it's a business decision" and they are correct. But that goes both ways, and this is where I am sure the collectors will argue with me. How many of us have heard collectors cajole us towards repayment based not on the "business decision to repay" but on the "moral" argument - you have a moral commitment to repay. It's as if one side of the transaction is an amoral "business decision" when made by a lender and the other is a "moral imperative" when made by a consumer.  "Yes, we raised your interest rate to 30% and cut your credit limit to $5 above your balance with no advance notice, tripled your payment, changed your due date and there is nothing you can do about it even though you have been a customer of ours for thirty years and have never made a late payment, but your payment is now five minutes late. Here's your late charge and we dinged your credit."

OK, so it may not actually be THAT draconian, but many people feel it's pretty close to that, and many are angry. How angry? I see a storm coming that the lenders are powerless to stop and may end up hurting them big-time.

If credit is reduced to simply an amoral "business decision" what happens when BOTH sides of the transaction see it that way? The moral imperative to be honest goes out the window and only what is expedient and can be "gotten away with" will happen. Let's discuss someone I know and we will call her Jenny. I personally know about  dozen people who fit Jenny's profile and the number is growing daily.

Jenny is in her late 50's. She has a six-figure credit limit spread among a half a dozen credit cards. Her utilization is about 20% and makes her payments consistently above the minimum and on time. Her FICO's are all in the mid 700's. She has a six-figure household income, owns her home and has three paid for cars. Her children are all grown and she is preparing for her retirement. She has two pensions fully vested and a solid investment portfolio.

She has also had $75,000 in credit lines reduced in the past year and has had four credit cards closed unannounced.  She feels she plays by one set of rules and the lenders play by another. She is right - she plays by the "moral imperative" set of rules and the the lenders are playing by the "business decision" set.

That is about to end.

Her plan: To retire at age 62 - as soon as she can collect her pensions and Social Security and move to the Philippines. She will sell her paid for home to her child before doing anything. By that time her investment portfolio will be in the low six-figure range, and her combined pensions and Social Security will allow her to live like royalty in the Philippines. Did I mention that she plans to hit all her credit cards up to the maximum before she leaves, and not pay them back? She won't need them in the Philippines, she will have enough cash for whatever her heart desires. She doesn't care what happens to her credit rating in the US, she will be in the Philippines. Or Brazil. Or Singapore. Or Korea. Or Mexico, Belize, Costa Rica or anywhere else in the world, even Nova Scotia. "It's not personal, it's business."

Collectors will skip trace her, maybe they will find her, maybe they won't. If they do, what can they do? Her pensions and Social Security will be Direct Deposited to a bank in the Philippines. Her assets will be in Treasury Bills. The Treasury will mail her a check every six months for the interest. None of which can be touched by bill collectors. Is she alone in making these plans? No, I know of a dozen like her and several who have already done this. The numbers will grow and with each one the lenders will get hit hard. In Jenny's case for $100,000. The new morality is "it's just business."

Lenders - you created this environment. I hope you enjoy it.
« Last Edit: November 03, 2009 09:39:51 AM by Flyingifr »
BTW-the Flyingifr Method does work. (quoted from Hannah on Infinite Credit, September 19, 2006)

I think of a telephone as a Debt Collector's crowbar. With such a device it is possible to pry one's mouth open wide enough to allow the insertion of a foot or two.

Morality of Debt? No one ever went to the Nether Regions for not paying a debt.

Founder of the Credit Terrorist Training Camp (Debtorboards)

decamp

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Re: Lenders - beware the coming storm
« Reply #1 on: November 03, 2009 10:08:58 AM »
Good post.

My mom got rate-jacked on two of her cards which had considerable balances, after paying like clockwork for ages. Always kept a balance, so I'm sure they made a ton of money from her in interest. Tried to keep up but can't pay the minimums anymore though.

Guess who is calling 30 times a day foaming at the mouth about not getting paid enough (or at all) now?

Rottweiler

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Re: Lenders - beware the coming storm
« Reply #2 on: November 03, 2009 10:16:12 AM »
I guess the lenders are about to get a Ph.D. degree program in "The Law of Unintended Consequences".

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decamp

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Re: Lenders - beware the coming storm
« Reply #3 on: November 03, 2009 10:25:18 AM »
I guess the lenders are about to get a Ph.D. degree program in "The Law of Unintended Consequences".

Kind of like laying off your workforce who used to also buy what they made then cry when your customers no longer have an income with which to buy your stuff.

Doctor Evil

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Re: Lenders - beware the coming storm
« Reply #4 on: November 03, 2009 11:01:48 AM »
All you complainers about line decreases, rate increases, etc. never seem to mention the fact that by signing up for the card you and your credit card company entered into a contract which permits them to do these very things in the event of economic factors which from a business standpoint, they decide to do. 

You spend countless hours trying to clean the baddies off your credit report to shield from the creditors your true risk as a borrower.  Well the creditors aren't slashing rates because of your past history, they are doing so to mitigate against losses you may cause in the future, or that have been caused by others.  Someone who may lose their job then live off their huge credit lines is a problem. 

Like it or not, your fellow consumers actions (or inactions) will in fact impact your credit.  It's not a one on one relationship.   
 
It's all academic because if your theory is true, there really is no reason to get all in a tiff over a line decrease for credit you have no intention of using.  The hit to the score won't matter since everyone is being weened off credit cards.

Don't worry though, as soon as the economy and banking system recover (years), credit cards companies will loosen their restrictions, and I can assure you there will be no shortage of people re-upping.

Rottweiler

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Re: Lenders - beware the coming storm
« Reply #5 on: November 03, 2009 11:12:46 AM »
It's all academic because if your theory is true, there really is no reason to get all in a tiff over a line decrease for credit you have no intention of using.  The hit to the score won't matter since everyone is being weened off credit cards.

Don't worry though, as soon as the economy and banking system recover (years), credit cards companies will loosen their restrictions, and I can assure you there will be no shortage of people re-upping.

Or, it may be the case that people will prove the truth of the adage "Once burned, twice shy" and decide that credit cards are not worth the hassle and expense for the service they get.

No "service", that is, except to empty out peoples' wallets and bank accounts with expensive debt.
“This is a court of law, young man, not a court of justice."
~ Olver Wendell Holmes

Flyingifr

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Re: Lenders - beware the coming storm
« Reply #6 on: November 03, 2009 11:20:25 AM »
Doc - agreeing to get raped doesn't mean you have to enjoy it.
BTW-the Flyingifr Method does work. (quoted from Hannah on Infinite Credit, September 19, 2006)

I think of a telephone as a Debt Collector's crowbar. With such a device it is possible to pry one's mouth open wide enough to allow the insertion of a foot or two.

Morality of Debt? No one ever went to the Nether Regions for not paying a debt.

Founder of the Credit Terrorist Training Camp (Debtorboards)

CleaningUp

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Re: Lenders - beware the coming storm
« Reply #7 on: November 03, 2009 12:00:59 PM »
Your argument, Dr. E, was a lot more valid fifteen or twenty years ago.

Once the shift from spread-based banking to fee-based banking occurred, the pursuit of fee generating "products" began in earnest.  The current crop of credit card offerings are specifically designed to extract big fees for minor transgressions that the consumer is likely doesn't realize he's committing..

Yes, the the consumer elects to accept this, but there is a high degree of rape-and-pillage designed into today's credit market.

Witness the recently posted case where a credit card was offering a 79% APR...how quickly do you think the fee gravy train will start on that card?

« Last Edit: November 03, 2009 12:07:45 PM by CleaningUp »

CleaningUp

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Doctor Evil

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Re: Lenders - beware the coming storm
« Reply #9 on: November 03, 2009 02:17:06 PM »
Doc - agreeing to get raped doesn't mean you have to enjoy it.

Well if you agree to it it isn't rape now is it.  Everyone thinks they are the victim.

You're just mad because your long term consensual sex partner, for whom you did everything to make happy all of a sudden has stopped returning your phone calls and gave you an STD.

phoenix2ny

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Re: Lenders - beware the coming storm
« Reply #10 on: November 03, 2009 03:47:21 PM »
Flying--Jenny's plan sounds all well and good, but I can't help feeling that once the market in the USA has been exhausted, the credit industry will aggressively try to implement their system abroad. They will sell the idea to poorer countries that the way to prosperity is through having an advanced credit system. They will use their deep pockets flush with money they've drained from developed countries to buy their way into less advanced countries. Look at the cigarette makers. Lawsuits, bad effects and tightened restrictions in the US have sent them into markets with lower hanging fruit. They'll sell their cancer sticks to a baby if they can. This credit system will do the same. Remember many countries mimic the US in terms of their development, they are just decades behind is all. Jenny may well find that by the time she turns 62, the Philippines may require a 775 FICO to buy a stick of gum. They're not gonna give up this cash cow without a fight.

Flyingifr

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Re: Lenders - beware the coming storm
« Reply #11 on: November 03, 2009 05:35:31 PM »
Phoenix - they are already doing it. India has a BIG credit card problem.
BTW-the Flyingifr Method does work. (quoted from Hannah on Infinite Credit, September 19, 2006)

I think of a telephone as a Debt Collector's crowbar. With such a device it is possible to pry one's mouth open wide enough to allow the insertion of a foot or two.

Morality of Debt? No one ever went to the Nether Regions for not paying a debt.

Founder of the Credit Terrorist Training Camp (Debtorboards)

EB Joe

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Re: Lenders - beware the coming storm
« Reply #12 on: November 03, 2009 07:05:09 PM »
Quote
Well the creditors aren't slashing rates because of your past history, they are doing so to mitigate against losses you may cause in the future, or that have been caused by others.

Hey doc, good post.  Although I'm sure you meant slashing LIMITS, or RAISING rates.

Now explain to the unwashed masses of us, why every limit/ratejack letter you'll ever see starts out "this is based on information in your credit report" and not "this is based on what you may do to us in the future, or what other people have done to us already".

Personally, if I get one of these letters, I'd like it to be completely truthful... i.e. "We're  :censored: drowning in debt right now because we lent out money on houses that we'll never get back, and we need cash right now, and the quickest gun we can fire to raise cash is to jack up interest payments to us.  That's why we ratejacked you.  Oh yes, and we're limitjacking you because our capitalization is  :censored: , because we loaned out money to buy a million houses, and the income stream we thought we were gonna get to keep our capitalization good has dried up."


OH, and just to be a  :censored: , (and get to use 1 more censored icon), if this
Quote
Well the creditors aren't slashing rates because of your past history, they are doing so to mitigate against losses you may cause in the future, or that have been caused by others.
is actually true, why have a FICO score?



ghost

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Re: Lenders - beware the coming storm
« Reply #13 on: November 03, 2009 07:34:04 PM »
Flying--Jenny's plan sounds all well and good, but I can't help feeling that once the market in the USA has been exhausted, the credit industry will aggressively try to implement their system abroad. They will sell the idea to poorer countries that the way to prosperity is through having an advanced credit system.

I don't think other countries will really jump on the bandwagon, though especially given the current state of affairs here. In most places in the world, it is cash and carry, only. I know for a fact in the Philippines it is. It is 100% straight cash. People don't get mortgages, they just pay cash for everything. This may mean they don't get a car for 15 years, but they manage to get by.
Lets do this

phoenix2ny

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Re: Lenders - beware the coming storm
« Reply #14 on: November 03, 2009 07:54:19 PM »
I know most countries are cash and carry, but that doesn't mean our credit industry isn't going to work hard to change that, especially as our market becomes more mature and saturated. Regarding our state of affairs: what may look bad to us may look good to a poor struggling country.